Posted on Thursday 18 March 2010
I'll start with て来る. A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar defines it as 'an auxiliary verb which indicates the beginning of some process or continuation of some action up to a certain point of time'.
I think I understand the first funtion (begining of a process), but the second one stumps me. It gives the example sentence, 私はいろいろな日本の歴史書を読んできた, meaning 'up to now, I've been reading various Japanese history books'. But mｙ question is, why would you need or want to slap てきた on the end? Wouldn't ～を読んでいる suffice? I can see how this relates to the above definition (continutation of some action) but I thought ている did just that? So what exactly is the difference between:
私はいろいろな日本の歴史書を読んできた, and
私はいろいろな日本の歴史書を読んでいる?
To the first funtion of てくる - indicating the beginning of a process, it gives the example sentence あの子はこの頃ずいぶんきれいになってきたね, and gives the English translation as 'that girl has become very pretty lately, hasn't she?'. This translation seems to contradict the definition they've given, in that the girl has become pretty (action completed). I would have thought a more accurate translation would be 'that girl has started to become very pretty lately, hasn't she', as this gives the impression that the girl will become even more pretty.
Another things that I've found strange is that in every example sentence both in my grammar book, and in my text book, this form is only ever found in the past tense (i.e. てきた or てきました). Wonder why that is?
In my text post I'll talk about て行く
sharp fall-off...losing more and more of something....) which gives the sense something has come or is coming that is unwelcome by the speaker. Whether that is a fair rendering of the original Japanese is another question...
I just did a search for 'てきている' on Jim Breen's example sentence function, and indeed, almost all the results came up with that sort of scary nuance.
お金が足りなくなってきている。 [T]
I am running short of money.
その騒音がますます大きくなってきている。 [T]
The noise is getting louder and louder.
この国は本当に落ちぶれてきている。 [T]
This country is really going to the dogs!
These sentences give the impression of something happening quite dramatically.
Thanks for everyone's input on this thread. I'll probably have to go over it a few more times just to let it all sink in!:-)
Here are two examples which may help.
(1) て来る can mean go and do something. Just remember in English we go and do something, while in Japanese we do something and then come back to the point where the trip started. For example, in English, we say to go buy a newspaper. In Japanese, we say shimbun o katte kuru.
(2) One example of て行く is the wierd phenomenon of "Where is the listener?" For example, speaker A is standing on a balcony on the second floor, while listener B is standing in the street at ground level. B has requested A to bring something down to B. A says "Motte ikimasu," meaning "I'll bring it right down." Here, in English the verb is "bring", while in Japanese it is "take".
By the way, I have found that most Japanese people studying English have no clue as to the difference between bring something (here) and take something (over there). They ALWAYS want to say bring something over there (while the two of us are standing together "here"), and they are shocked and confused when I them it is a mistake. (This also gets into Japanese people saying "come back" when they mean "go home".)
I'm certainly not an expert, but I always thought there was a difference in what was implied between -te iru and -te kuru. I always thought the latter was more of a passive sense, more of a general statement, whereas te iru was more active.
EX. If I were asked what I was doing recently I could say:
I've started reading books (hon wo yondekita)
or
I'm reading a book. (hon wo yondeiru)
Is this inaccurate?
I guess it has something to do with "tekuru" but some of them can be used with it, some cannot, so I wonder...
Yes, the book that I drew it from didn't commit to saying you use it for all of them...and I wasn't totally sure either except for common examples like 知る、立つ、降る、濡れる。。。:relief:
Anyway, I hope this is a list we can start adding to in the future and that this thread has been to some help to Bucko. :cool: Although I think the feeling of difference you get between てきた、てきている and the regular verb ending is something very subtle and maybe impossible to fully explain in English. :relief:
- if it's a "process" verb, like naru, futoru, wakaru, or furu, I'll think of 'tekita' as 'started to', or 'began to'..
If it is with a 'momentary verb,' meaning a change in action or transition from one state to another is imminent, I think you can safely think of as "tekita" for beginning or started to happen. These bottom examples are only a few I found in the book "Basic Connections : Making Your Japanese Flow" plus a few of my own. Try also searching on momentary verbs. There's bound to be a more comprehensive list somewhere.
With verbs like 成る、分かる、増える、減る、太る which indicate movement across time, きた suggests/emphasizes the action as having come from a point in the past （きた）, is still in the process of coming （きている） or will come (くる）。
知る
壊れる
ぬ
入る
閉じる
咲く
開く
降る
散る
唐黷
立つ
落ちる
着く
届く
触れる
濡れる
英語では、up until nowという阜ｻを入れるとまったく違った意味になるで ｵょう。
それは、I'm not going to be reading them anymore, I will not be reading them exclusively anymore に近い 感じがしますね。 「読んできた」は 「only very recently started the habit/process of reading just Japanese books 」という意味でも使えるかな。。。
外国人には使い方はとても難しいです。
たいてい「読んでいる｣が一般的で無難でしょう。
:relief:
私も「読んでいる／読んでいます」が無難だし、ふつう だと思います。
:cool:
「読んできた」というと「今まではずっと読んできたけ れど、これからは違う」とか
「今までずっと読んできたけど、こんな本には出会った ことがなかった」というように
「今まで（過去）」と「今（現在）」または「これから （未来）」で何かdrastic changeがあるような印象を受けます。
ちなみに「読んできた」は「最近になって読み始めた」 「読むようになった」という意味には使えません。
上で説明したような「変化」について以外では「ここに 来る前に読んできた」、つまり「すでに読んでおいた」 という意味になるかと思います。
この意味だと「最近何をしていますか」の答えには使え ませんけどね。
:-)
説明していて感じたのですが、「〜てきた」というのは 過去を振り返って言う場合によく使うんじゃないでしょ うか。
Glennさんの言う up until nowに通じるところがあるかな。
Actually, I have another question which I came across today, but my Japanese teacher couldn't explain it properly...
日本人の睡眠時間が減ってきていますが、その原因は何 ですか。
So what's the purpose of 〜てきている here? What's the difference between 減っています and 減ってきています?
I've noticed too that 減ってきた、減ってきている often carries a more dynamic and scary sounding English translation (fast disappearing...the coming decline...
sharp fall-off...losing more and more of something....) which gives the sense something has come or is coming that is unwelcome by the speaker. Whether that is a fair rendering of the original Japanese is another question...
- if it's a "process" verb, like naru, futoru, wakaru, or furu, I'll think of 'tekita' as 'started to', or 'began to'.
- for other verbs I'll think of it as "up until now, have been ~, and may continue to". Have to slap on the "may continue to" for the reason Elizabeth stated above.
If you think about it, there isn't a logical break point in English either between "started to" and "has been that way." Normally English speakers will not comfortably use "up to now" without the expectation of some discontuinity in the process, even a very slight change. Unless what they really mean is "up to this point..." "It has reached the point that..." which to me is a more objective and analytical way to talk about what has accumulated so far.
Perhaps it's just another difference in cultures, though. What's the point in mentioning anything that is "just as it is, "just that way ?" Dig deeply enough and behind the feeling, there always has to be a valid reason....:okashii: :p
たとえば、日々日々に暖かくなる、日々日々に暖かくな っている、
>日々日々に暖かくなってきている、日々日々に暖かくな てきた。。。
>全ての例文は、英語の It's getting colder day by day みたいなもので、
大体意味にはあんまり違いがないと思うけど「強さ、主 観的な感じ、冬（温暖前線）がもう近づいているかどう か、先日ほど暖かくなかった日なのか」などに差がある ような感じがしますね。
人それぞれでしょうか。。。人は寒さがひどくこたえる ものかも。。。（笑い）
:relief:
but you cannot say "hon wo yonde kita" as the latter sounds like "I've read a book before coming here".
~ de kita means either
- having been doing something up to now (past event viewing from "now")
- having done something before I came here (did something, then came here)
If I were asked what I had been doing recently I might reply either with
(Saikin) Nihongo no hon bakari yonde imasu.
(Saikin) Nihongo no hon bakari yonde kimashita.
The same pattern applied to Bucko's example and I still don't see the difference in terms of continuation or progressiveness. Certainly not in their English translations.
Sorry, I have not heard of that. Can you give me an example? The only thing I can think of is "yonde kuru" meaning go and read something. I have never heard English present perfect continuous (have been ~ing) rendered into Japanese that way.
- if it's a "process" verb, like naru, futoru, wakaru, or furu, I'll think of 'tekita' as 'started to', or 'began to'.
- for other verbs I'll think of it as "up until now, have been ~, and may continue to". Have to slap on the "may continue to" for the reason Elizabeth stated above.
It doesn't search Japanese characters is the short explanation. A few have started to trickle back into mind, though, I'll see if I can't look them up more this afternoon.
Here are two examples which may help.
(1) て来る can mean go and do something. Just remember in English we go and do something, while in Japanese we do something and then come back to the point where the trip started. For example, in English, we say to go buy a newspaper. In Japanese, we say shimbun o katte kuru.
(2) One example of て行く is the wierd phenomenon of "Where is the listener?" For example, speaker A is standing on a balcony on the second floor, while listener B is standing in the street at ground level. B has requested A to bring something down to B. A says "Motte ikimasu," meaning "I'll bring it right down." Here, in English the verb is "bring", while in Japanese it is "take".
By the way, I have found that most Japanese people studying English have no clue as to the difference between bring something (here) and take something (over there). They ALWAYS want to say bring something over there (while the two of us are standing together "here"), and they are shocked and confused when I them it is a mistake. (This also gets into Japanese people saying "come back" when they mean "go home".)
Hey Buntaro, I think we're discussing a different grammatical point here. Have you learnt of the "progress" tekuru? And the continuative teiku?
I'll start with て来る. A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar defines it as 'an auxiliary verb which indicates the beginning of some process or continuation of some action up to a certain point of time'.
I think I understand the first funtion (begining of a process), but the second one stumps me. It gives the example sentence, 私はいろいろな日本の歴史書を読んできた, meaning 'up to now, I've been reading various Japanese history books'. But mｙ question is, why would you need or want to slap てきた on the end? Wouldn't 〜を読んでいる suffice? I can see how this relates to the above definition (continutation of some action) but I thought ている did just that? So what exactly is the difference between:
私はいろいろな日本の歴史書を読んできた, and
私はいろいろな日本の歴史書を読んでいる?
To the first funtion of てくる - indicating the beginning of a process, it gives the example sentence あの子はこの頃ずいぶんきれいになってきたね, and gives the English translation as 'that girl has become very pretty lately, hasn't she?'. This translation seems to contradict the definition they've given, in that the girl has become pretty (action completed). I would have thought a more accurate translation would be 'that girl has started to become very pretty lately, hasn't she', as this gives the impression that the girl will become even more pretty.
More accurate not really, certainly not more natural. It's the completion of the process of a period of change. The beginning of her condition as fully and obviously "pretty" is probably what they had in mind with this example.
There's nothing to guarantee continuation in the same way at the beginning of winter instead of "samukute natta" "samuku natte kimashita" is more logical. In the middle of winter, if it becomes suddenly cold again after a warm spell you would say "samuku natta." Either way, doesn't mean it is necessarily going to turn out to be a cold rest of the winter.
The reading example with "have been reading" gives me the sense of a recent change in reading material either way. There's hardly any difference between yonde iru and 'yonde kita" I think in Japanese.
Anyway, there are tons of past threads covering exactly these nuances of modal verbs and grammar structures.
I guess it has something to do with "tekuru" but some of them can be used with it, some cannot, so I wonder...
読んできた
It expresses accumulation. more emphasis your experience.
読んでいる
It only explains what you are doing.
This was more or less my understanding. Using 読んできた meant "had come to read" as in a progression from not reading at all before to reading now.
Another example would be like (pardon the lack of kana as I'm at work)
"Nihonshu ga suki ni natte kita"
I've come to like sake (whereas in the past I didn't).
- if it's a "process" verb, like naru, futoru, wakaru, or furu, I'll think of 'tekita' as 'started to', or 'began to'.
- for other verbs I'll think of it as "up until now, have been ~, and may continue to". Have to slap on the "may continue to" for the reason Elizabeth stated above.
Compared with "~teiku", I think that "~tekuru" focus on something is in process "up to now". It does not imply when it started (i.e. when something is in process, it has already started), or whether it will continue or not (i.e. just it has been so).
私はいろいろな日本の歴史書を読んできた, and
私はいろいろな日本の歴史書を読んでいる?
I think,
読んできた
It expresses accumulation. more emphasis your experience.
読んでいる
It only explains what you are doing.
I've started reading books (hon wo yondekita)
or
I'm reading a book. (hon wo yondeiru)
Is this inaccurate?
To a question asking what you are doing recently, you can say "hon wo yonde iru" I'm (currently) reading a book.
but you cannot say "hon wo yonde kita" as the latter sounds like "I've read a book before coming here".
~ de kita means either
- having been doing something up to now (past event viewing from "now")
- having done something before I came here (did something, then came here)
Something must be wrong with the way I search then, because nothing comes up when I put in the keyword て来る, not even my thread!
Yep, it's been a great help, and I'm glad others have got something out of it too :-)
Actually, I have another question which I came across today, but my Japanese teacher couldn't explain it properly...
日本人の睡眠時間が減ってきていますが、その原因は何 ですか。
So what's the purpose of 〜てきている here? What's the difference between 減っています and 減ってきています?
Another example would be like (pardon the lack of kana as I'm at work)
"Nihonshu ga suki ni natte kita"
I've come to like sake (whereas in the past I didn't).
Yonde iru is also "have been reading," which implies you didn't at the point immediately previous...
Does anyone say hello here anyway ? ! :p
Read this and see if it helps.
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28795&highlight=future
ここが違う」とはっきりしたものでなく、感覚的なのも のかもしれません。:p
英語では、up until nowという阜ｻを入れるとまったく違った意味になるで ｵょう。
それは、I'm not going to be reading them anymore, I will not be reading them exclusively anymore に近い 感じがしますね。 「読んできた」は 「only very recently started the habit/process of reading just Japanese books 」という意味でも使えるかな。。。
外国人には使い方はとても難しいです。
たいてい「読んでいる｣が一般的で無難でしょう。
:relief:
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